Interview – Phantom Logic
Everything revolves around Earthless…
And everything always comes full circle... Some stories begin with a plan. Others emerge by accident, somewhere between instinct, chance and just enough of something we like to call beautiful chaos. Or maybe it's fate? Predestination? This is the story of Phantom Logic, a San Diego band carving out its own strange little niche in the rock universe with a wild, free-flowing sound and a tendency to wander wherever the music leads. Just like the story. In April of this year, that wandering took shape as Salton Dust. Their psychedelic, meandering debut. A true adventure if ever there was one. A journey through sun bleached landscapes, distortion, open spaces and whirling dust. We're talking to Matthew Meyer, guitarist, instigator and the driving force behind Phantom Logic...
It’s eleven in the morning in San Diego when Mr. Meyer pops up on screen, smiling, slightly tired looking but giddy to talk about everything Phantom Logic and its debut release Salton Dust. And no longer sporting the beard he had on the unboxing video we watched on Instagram. "It was the perfect night; we got our hands on the vinyl for the first time. It’s filmed at a brewery. Isaiah Mitchell played a solo gig there that night, so it felt great to hand him the first copy. It was also the spot where I met Buddy Donner from Glory Or Death Records for the very first time. Getting our album released by Glory Or Death, playing with Isaiah, and everything happening in a small circle around us, feels like… Well.. It’s almost indescribable…"
Wait, let’s pull back, get grounded, and start at the beginning. A great story like that of Phantom Logic deserves to be told slowly. Meandering. In the same free form their music embraces. And where does it start? With the love for music… Remember, it all comes full circle, even though it might meander along the way. It’s a long screed, only momentarily interrupted by annoying questions trying to steer the story... It’s all about the journey…
"Oh man, I’ve been addicted to music for as long as I can remember. I started out as a kid buying cassette tapes of all kinds of pop music. Whitney Houston, for instance. I love everything about music: the exploration, and how getting into one artist or genre always leads to discovering something else, or another artist you want to hear. You’re always searching for those gems that make you want to tell everybody that they’re better than those other artists. It’s a never-ending path, with a million branches to explore. I never get tired of that. It’s so cool.
I love seeing the interconnectedness of different projects by artists I love. John Reis, for instance. Do you know him? He’s the driving force behind bands like Drive Like Jehu, Hot Snakes, Rocket From The Crypt, and several others that came out of the San Diego underground. He’s a great example of what I love about music: somebody who is genuinely passionate and cares about creating the best art he possibly can. He puts his hands into so many different projects that are highly unique, yet all carry his fingerprint. As a music fan, being able to explore all those different kinds of music made by all those different people is amazing.
And I love wondering what was going on when they made it. What were they thinking? What were they feeling? What drove them, out of all the music they could make in the world, to make this particular music? I find that endlessly fascinating from a human standpoint. It’s part of what makes great art great. And it’s also why you immediately hear when those thoughts weren’t there. It’s what makes crappy mainstream music less interesting. The feelings, thoughts, or experiences weren’t there. They were just trying to sell something, make money, or get some clicks. So, yeah, why do I love music? I love the art of it, the humanity of it, and the artists who express that most deeply, with the least concern for whether anybody else will like it or whether it will make them money.
I already mentioned John Reis, one of my absolute favorite musicians for that reason. And so is Mike Watt. I mean, the Minutemen, c’mon! The entire ethos behind everything he does, and the way he presents himself, is purely for the love of art and music. That always fires me up. I mean, the music alone. But because of the passion these artists have for what they do, the art behind it, all the secondary elements are great as well. The cover art, for instance. And then going to see those bands, getting your brain melted, kaboom! Music. It’s such a fascinating, interesting part of being human, something that follows you through your entire life, from the moment you get into music until the day you die. And you never grow tired of it…
I remember riding shotgun in my dad’s station wagon, listening to Gloria Estefan and the Miami Sound Machine or the Top Gun soundtrack blasting through the car stereo. Those were probably my very first experiences with music and feeling that it did something to me. Thinking it was the greatest stuff ever at the time. Or Kenny Loggins, sweet-sounding Kenny, cruising around in the wagon, going God knows where, those sounds making the whole journey feel like the greatest kind of adventure…"
Just like Phantom Logic sounds like the greatest kind of adventure. The music takes you places and it all sounds like pure art from a pure heart. So, tell me how it all came to be?
"All right! So, Kris (Kristofer Dawson, bass) and I were already playing together in a couple of krautrock projects, but I’d been looking to start something new. Something looser, guitar-based, and louder. I mentioned to Kris that I felt like doing more of an Earthless kind of thing.
So yeah, I checked Craigslist. Yes, this is a good old Craigslist band story. I never saw anything interesting pop up there, and then suddenly Kiran (Kiran Sheshadri, drums) posted an ad: ‘Drummer looking to start an Earthless-style band.’ All smiles, I knew I had to hit this guy up. So, not the coolest story ever perhaps, but that’s how it happened. I called him, said I loved Earthless and that Isaiah Mitchell was my favorite guitarist of all time, set a date to jam, and told him I knew a bassist. I called Kris, who’s an instrumentalist and really good at everything, and he immediately wanted to join.
We went into the rehearsal space, shook hands for the first time, and instantly clicked. You know, sometimes, for whatever reason, things just work. There was chemistry, and it was immediate. We started going into these crazy improvisations that felt good and full of energy. We kept circling back to each other, and everything seemed to happen instantaneously. So we kept getting together and doing that, sometimes returning to a piece we remembered and molding it into something we could put out as a demo.
What also amazed us was how much we remembered from those sessions. One of us could say, ‘Let’s start with that thing in A minor,’ and immediately, we’d all just go there."
Wait?! So after the first time shaking hands, you immediately jam and the Phantom Logic sound was born?
"Well, not exactly. I met him a week before the first jam. After trading emails, we noticed there was another Earthless show in town, so we agreed to meet there. Everything revolves around Earthless for us. We met, enjoyed the show, talked about Earthless, music, and what we wanted to do. Then, a week later, we played. We jammed a lot after that. The energy was through the roof, and we were all so excited. But at some point, you’re so giddy about what you’re making. It’s just the three of you playing in a little room in a downtown warehouse, having a blast, but nobody else can hear you. You start wondering: is this as good as we think it is, or is it just noise?
Finally, after a few sessions, Kris brought a recording device. We recorded our demo, Kris mixed it a little, and when the three of us listened back, we still thought it sounded legit. It sounded good to our ears, and we reckoned we had something to work with. That led us to what I think was the best move possible for this kind of music: we decided not to play it into the ground and risk taking the magic out of it. So we booked a studio and went in to record properly.
We booked time at Singing Serpent Studio here in San Diego with an amazing producer, Ben Moore. As you might know, he also did the last Earthless album. I’d been following him all my life because he’s basically done all the John Reis stuff since 2002. He was someone I truly admired, and here was my chance to work with him. Of course, we rehearsed some of the demo, but not too much. You don’t want to lose that improvisational studio magic. Really, booking the studio that quickly feels like the smartest decision we made."
How did those recordings end up with Glory Or Death Records?
"Yeah, it’s all very serendipitous. There’s another tie-in with Isaiah Mitchell, too, haha. We’ll get to that later. I read an interview with Buddy Donner on the Ripple Effect website, and after spending some time with him now, I can say it really captured him as he is. He’s an awesome guy, a pure music-loving enthusiast. After reading the interview, I immediately thought, ‘Holy crap, this is the guy I’d love to hear my music and tell me what he thinks.’
I went to the Glory Or Death Records website, found the submission link, and sent it to him. I really wasn’t expecting much, but somewhere deep down, I felt, or actually just hoped, that this guy might get it.
After hitting send, I went off into the desert for a couple of days to camp and hang out. There was no internet, and barely any phone reception. Two days in, I suddenly got a text from an unknown number: ‘Hey, Isaiah Mitchell here. I’m hanging out with Buddy Donner, and he says you’re going to give him an album, but you’re not replying to his email.’
My head exploded! I had no idea these guys even knew each other, and they just happened to see each other two days after I’d sent Buddy the email. Perfect timing, like it was meant to be! I immediately texted back: ‘I’m out in the desert with no reception. As soon as I get home, I’ll send it over.’
Once home, I sent it, and he replied instantly that he loved it and wanted to help us somehow. He’s been the most incredible guy. I could talk for the rest of this interview about how awesome, nice, and cool he is. He’s doing it all out of love. Like you’re doing with Stoner HiVe, he’s running his record label purely out of love for music. I’m incredibly grateful to him for all the opportunities he’s given us. Everything that’s happened, getting our music out into the world, is because of him. He’s so damn cool!"
Everything revolves around Earthless… And you already mentioned the band and Isaiah Mitchell quite a few times now. But how on earth did he end up playing on all the songs?
"I’ve probably seen Earthless play live around 30 times since 2008, but I’d never spoken to Isaiah. We’d been jamming with Phantom Logic and had just booked studio time with Ben at Singing Serpent when I found out Isaiah was playing a show with Adam McDougall. I wasn’t very familiar with Adam until this project, but then discovered his time with The Black Crowes and Circles Around The Sun. He’s an amazing keyboard player, and what they’re doing together is crazy, it's just the two of them. I think they have a record coming out soon. I saw them again a couple of weeks ago. It’s kind of like Tangerine Dream, but then they’re having a dance party at times. I’m not sure how else to explain it. It’s incredible!
Anyway, right after we booked the studio with Ben, I went to one of those shows and saw Isaiah as I was leaving. I was slightly nervous, but thought, ‘You know what? I’m going to let him know about this project.’ I went up to him, said hi, and briefly explained that we’d formed the band around our shared love of Earthless. Then I was bold enough to ask if he’d listen to the demo and see if he had any ideas for me.
Like Buddy, he’s one of the nicest people I’ve ever talked to. He was completely open and earnest and said, ‘Sure, email it over. I’ll take a listen.’ I knew immediately he’d listen and give me good pointers on my playing or the compositions.
He listened, got back to me quickly, and was pretty pumped about it. He said he had a bunch of ideas. Over the next few months, we got together several times and jammed over the demo. Sometimes he’d just play while I watched, trying to understand what he was thinking about different parts, and it all grew organically from there.
As we worked, I started dropping hints, like, ‘Maybe you could do a little solo on one of the songs. That would be really cool for us.’ He said, ‘Of course, sounds like fun.’ And then it just morphed and grew until he ended up playing on literally every single minute of the entire album.
Serendipitous, perhaps, or just strange how it all came together. But for me, this whole story is like a fairy tale. I got to meet one of my favorite musicians of all time, hang out with him, play with him, and make an entire album with him. From a music-nerd, music-fan standpoint, it’s unbelievable.
It’s an incredible thing that’s happened, and whatever happens from here, this will always be the moment when everything came full circle. All I can hope is that Isaiah is as happy with the time he spent on this as I am. I know he’s pretty happy with how it turned out, and he seems excited about everything.
Now we’re looking forward to playing our first show in the next couple of months, hopefully with him. We’ve always played this music as a three-piece, so sharing a stage with him will be a completely different experience.
You can’t force things to happen, in my opinion. I’ve always just let things happen in their own way. But perhaps taking the initiative every so often to get the ball rolling is rewarding. Contacting Buddy, walking up to Isaiah after the show... It’s just that little step…"
But if I’m hearing you correct, he played over it after you already finished the album, right?
"Absolutely. We went into the studio with Ben with the goal of making the best album the three of us could. We were already in contact with Isaiah, but there was no real expectation that he would play on it, let alone the whole thing. We just hoped he might add a little part here or there to enhance a track.
So, we spent three days in the studio recording the album. Once we had the rough mix, I sent it to Isaiah. Even though he was already familiar with the songs, Ben’s mix really opened up new possibilities for him. He got fired up about it, so we scheduled another studio date with Ben, and Isaiah just went ahead and laid down parts on every track.
It’s insane watching him play. He’s a wizard with the guitar. There were times when I’d look over at Ben and we’d just grin and laugh watching him do his thing. Most of my guitar work was done in a single take, but all of Isaiah’s surely was. And there was almost no editing of his parts. We wanted the guitars to feel as loose as possible, not curated, might be the right word. So yeah, most of the guitar from both of us was done in a single take.
It's all very much like a fairy tale, man. I got to record in the studio where The Hot Snakes, another one of my favorite bands of all time, recorded all their albums. And there’s the drum set, the very same drums used on every one of those Hot Snakes albums.
Oh, and Mario (Rubalcaba), the drummer from Earthless, was also one of the two drummers in Hot Snakes. Another link, right? And that drum set, just sitting there, waiting for us to use. It’s what jumps out at me every time I walk into that studio, or even think about our time there. Iconic!
Albums I love and have listened to a million times, and then our very own Kiran Sheshadri gets to play those drums on our very own album…"
So that's how everything ended up sound like it did. But how did it all start? The Phantom Logic sound. Before any of the fairytale ending was even within reach?
"It all started with a riff. It’s funny because the riff that inspired that entire long jam is now such a minor part of the song. It was maybe three or four notes, but we kept coming back to it. Every time we got together, I’d start playing that little riff and everyone would go, “Okay, I remember this,” and we’d build from there. Now that riff is played twice in the entire song, for maybe five seconds total. And that one little idea grew into a 26-minute song.
Earthless is obviously our biggest touchstone, but without trying to sound cheesy, we’re really just trying to make the music we want to hear. If you do that, you’re going to end up with something that’s cool, even if it’s only cool to you. And maybe somebody else will think it’s cool too. That’s really all we’re doing: taking these little riffs that come up in the moment and seeing if we can make something that sounds cool out of them. It might sound too simple, but that’s all it is.
One thing that’s important with this band is that nobody has ever brought anything to the table that was pre-recorded or fully thought out. That riff was completely organic. It came up right there in the moment. The demo that eventually became the album was made entirely that way. I write a lot of riffs at home that I think are cool and record them, but for this project, I think it works better if I don’t bring anything prepared. That way, all three of us get to be part of that initial creative process, and it brings a lot of energy to the room.
When we get together, we’re there to play. We might hang out for a minute, but then we play for the entire two or three hours. There’s very little talking. We don’t stop to discuss a part or tell each other how something should be reworked. We just play, play, play, and let the music work itself out.
And we never tell each other what to do. We’ve never once said, “I think you should do this here.” Everyone is free to do what they feel is right in that moment and what they think best serves the band. That’s created a really healthy atmosphere for making music without getting on each other’s nerves with ideas about what somebody else should be doing.
That’s always been a downfall of bands I’ve been in. When one member starts telling another what they should play or how they should approach something, that’s when things can start to grate and a band can begin to fall apart. Sometimes that tension can be healthy, but for us, it isn’t. So we just keep our mouths shut and play."
Just shut up and play. Well obviously, that might just be the adagium of Earthless as well....
"Oh yeah. I believe so. They go wild. They go big and they let the music do the talking. You know, I don’t think I’ve ever seen Earthless play outside of San Diego. One of the great things about living here is getting to see them so often. The best show I’ve ever seen in my entire life was probably in 2009 or 2010. They played a generator show out in the desert, maybe 100 or 150 people, down a dirt road in the middle of nowhere. It was an incredible experience. I remember kneeling in the sand right in front of Isaiah’s amp, just getting my face melted, and looking over to the side and seeing Mario playing this huge bass drum with no drumhead on the front. There was a girl literally crawling out of the drum. It was a crazy night. A really good night."
We ramble on. Meander through the San Diego scene. Which remains pretty healthy Matthew thinks, although Matthew feels there isn’t quite as much heavy music around as there used to be. "That might just be me not getting out as much as I used to, now that I’ve got kids," he laughs. Still, he credits Earthless with helping ignite the psychedelic scene in the city and keeping much of it alive.
He then talks about some more lovely small details about Salton Dust. For instance that he painted the album cover himself, using acrylic on canvas. "I wanted the album cover to come from somebody in the band, if possible. I just always think that’s cool. I painted it over the course of making the album, and different ideas came to me as we worked on it. I’m not trying to pump myself up or say it’s the greatest painting ever. I just love it when the art comes from the band or somebody connected to it."
Which ties in to... Yes, Earthless, too. "Mike from Earthless has created some of their artwork. He did the cover for Night Parade of a Thousand Demons, and it’s amazing. I’ve always thought that was really cool."
Then there’s another little piece of musical history hidden in the recording itself. Ben Moore had recorded the previous Earthless album using 1970s two-inch tape from Japan. He still had that same tape, and used it to record Phantom Logic’s drums. "So it’s just a fun little music-nerd thing. We got a little more of that weird mojo going."
And then, inevitably, the conversation comes full circle. We're back to the love of music and Isaiah... Cause everything revolves around that... And Earthless...
"Yeah, man, he is so incredibly nice. You know how they say, ‘Don’t meet your heroes because you’ll be disappointed’? With him, it’s the opposite. I feel like I loved him so much before I met him, and I love him even more now. He’s just the coolest guy."
Not long after this interview, both Kris and Kiran decided to leave Phantom Logic. But Matthew quickly found replacements in Chris Hedge on bass and Randy Lovell on drums. "They have been playing together for 20 years (most recently in psych/prog band The Grok, who just released a new album called Dream Creature), and they are launching Phantom Logic into the rhythmic stratosphere." And for even more great news: "We are heading into Tasty Wax studios with Isaiah Mitchell on October 6 for a night of full improvisational cosmic jams, with the tastiest grooves to be pressed in a limited vinyl release." Stay tuned!
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